Comments on: If Johnny Jumped Off of a Cliff … http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6 Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:51:00 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Mike http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1#comment-20541 Mike Fri, 30 May 2008 15:39:17 +0000 http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/102/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6#comment-20541 Don, I really appreciate your articles and those you find concerning the theme of the place of apologetics in Christianity. I had some thoughts. I don't agree that the church is the place to teach apologetics. The current pastors and staff are unable and unequipped to do this. (Apologetics is a side bar for seminary training.) But this could be done on the level of simply help people to know their bible and where the verses or chapters are that teach this or that. (Again, that the church could accomplish this without outside help is questionable.) Confronting the culture war is simply beyond the scope of the church. Bringing in groups like yours with workshops is the way to do this. Some things that struck me about evangelism in today's postmodern world was the following: I think that the days have passed when you would get such direct confrontation concerning expressing your faith. This seems a rare experience these days. The reason, I believe, is because it has been assumed that we are all just "telling our story". Our insistence that it is somehow unique or that others need to know and believe is due to (in the world's view) our ignorance, naivete, parochialism. Like a sincere school boy, we are handled gently and pandered to concerning our world view. We are not rebuked but seen as children. We are seen as sincere, but misguided and probably a product of brain washing. We may even be seen as still young at heart. We carry an attitude that hopes in the idea that people still care about what you believe in and that our beliefs have some relevance on life and the future. These circumstances in the postmodern culture mean that evangelism is not something that will produce the urge to seek out the facts about Christianity among our ranks. IOW, I think the article is correct when it says that apologetics is about more than evangelizing others. These days apologetics is more about keeping the one's we have. Blessings, Mike Ferrando Washington, DC Don,
I really appreciate your articles and those you find concerning the theme of the place of apologetics in Christianity.

I had some thoughts.

I don’t agree that the church is the place to teach apologetics.

The current pastors and staff are unable and unequipped to do this. (Apologetics is a side bar for seminary training.)

But this could be done on the level of simply help people to know their bible and where the verses or chapters are that teach this or that. (Again, that the church could accomplish this without outside help is questionable.)

Confronting the culture war is simply beyond the scope of the church.

Bringing in groups like yours with workshops is the way to do this.

Some things that struck me about evangelism in today’s postmodern world was the following:

I think that the days have passed when you would get such direct confrontation concerning expressing your faith. This seems a rare experience these days.

The reason, I believe, is because it has been assumed that we are all just “telling our story”. Our insistence that it is somehow unique or that others need to know and believe is due to (in the world’s view) our ignorance, naivete, parochialism.

Like a sincere school boy, we are handled gently and pandered to concerning our world view.

We are not rebuked but seen as children. We are seen as sincere, but misguided and probably a product of brain washing.

We may even be seen as still young at heart. We carry an attitude that hopes in the idea that people still care about what you believe in and that our beliefs have some relevance on life and the future.

These circumstances in the postmodern culture mean that evangelism is not something that will produce the urge to seek out the facts about Christianity among our ranks.

IOW, I think the article is correct when it says that apologetics is about more than evangelizing others. These days apologetics is more about keeping the one’s we have.

Blessings,
Mike Ferrando
Washington, DC

]]> By: Glenn E. Chatfield http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1#comment-20499 Glenn E. Chatfield Thu, 29 May 2008 23:43:56 +0000 http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/102/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6#comment-20499 Great article, Don, and that was a great article by Anthony also. Barb, I couldn't have said it better myself; I am tired of that old refrain that today's youth have it soooooo much harder. Balderdash! Our youth ministries are often part of the problem, especially when our youth pastors are not much older than the youth they are pastoring; they want to be buddies rather than mentors. Let's start changing things there and maybe our next generation will be more discerning. Great article, Don, and that was a great article by Anthony also. Barb, I couldn’t have said it better myself; I am tired of that old refrain that today’s youth have it soooooo much harder. Balderdash! Our youth ministries are often part of the problem, especially when our youth pastors are not much older than the youth they are pastoring; they want to be buddies rather than mentors. Let’s start changing things there and maybe our next generation will be more discerning.

]]> By: Barb http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6/comment-page-1#comment-20475 Barb Thu, 29 May 2008 15:30:25 +0000 http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/102/if-johnny-jumped-off-of-a-cliff-%e2%80%a6#comment-20475 I agree that Biblical Christian education and learning how to defend our faith when attacked/challenged needs to become a priority for youth and adults alike. If we really want to reach youth, we'll include reaching their parents. The thing I see going on in the youth ministry movement is this idea that today's youth are somehow struggling more than any generation that has gone before. This is incredulous to me because even though a war is going on, there is no draft and you see almost nothing of the war on the nightly news, so it's easy to put it in the back of one's mind. Youth today have more leisure time, more toys and gadgets, more attention due to smaller family sizes, fewer chores, more money, nicer schools, etc. than any previous generation. (I rarely see kids out shoveling snow or mowing lawns anymore. I do see lots of Dads with snowblowers and on riding lawnmowers!) Women young and old have rights and opportunities that previous generations only dreamed about, and our quality of life in general has never been more affluent or made easy through technology. The poor in this country would be considered middle class in other countries. Yes, drugs, alcohol and broken families are, sadly, still around, just like in all previous generations. But it's not new or unique to this generation, as some would have you think. More prevalent, perhaps, but not new. (and only more reason for solid Christian education and not fluff). The main difference between youth today and youth of previous generations is the level of self-centeredness and sense of entitlement. When you listen to the voices in the youth ministry industry today, those voices want to pander to, treat with kid gloves, and lay down the un-offending red carpet for young people in order to "engage" them. The Truth is softened or not brought up at all, unconditional love means no expectations or accountability, and Christianity becomes a case of building self-esteem vs. confidence (gaining confidence requires actually accomplishing something whereas esteem relies on people and outside forces liking, catering to and never disagreeing with you). In its attempts to never step on the precious toes of young people, youth ministry is in danger of creating groupies to a hip youth pastor and ministry. If I were a young person, I would find this completely condescending and offensive! You know, when Jack Nicholson says "You Can't Handle the Truth!"....I think our kids WANT the truth and they want to be treated like they can handle the truth. My son, when he was 11, fell in love with the Gideon's Bible that he read when we stayed in a hotel. He could no longer read his "cool" youth Bible when we returned from our trip. Shortly after this, I was at a coffee shop that sold used books, and found the exact same Gideon's Bible that was in our hotel room. This is what my son reads. He likes the traditional wording, (no "awesome" sidebars or graphics) plain red cover and all. We underestimate kids because we think they've become so tenderized by the current world they live in and are nothing but culture-driven. But kids are perfect candidates for the refining fire of God! They will rise to the Gospel when it is presented confidently, lovingly, honestly and truthfully ever time. For youth ministry to water the teaching down or leave it out completely is to cause the youth to stumble, as mentioned in Matthew 18:6. The only thing that must change is this notion that youth, and adults, aren't interested in and can't handle the Truth. Great blog!! Thanks! I agree that Biblical Christian education and learning how to defend our faith when attacked/challenged needs to become a priority for youth and adults alike. If we really want to reach youth, we’ll include reaching their parents.
The thing I see going on in the youth ministry movement is this idea that today’s youth are somehow struggling more than any generation that has gone before. This is incredulous to me because even though a war is going on, there is no draft and you see almost nothing of the war on the nightly news, so it’s easy to put it in the back of one’s mind. Youth today have more leisure time, more toys and gadgets, more attention due to smaller family sizes, fewer chores, more money, nicer schools, etc. than any previous generation. (I rarely see kids out shoveling snow or mowing lawns anymore. I do see lots of Dads with snowblowers and on riding lawnmowers!)
Women young and old have rights and opportunities that previous generations only dreamed about, and our quality of life in general has never been more affluent or made easy through technology. The poor in this country would be considered middle class in other countries.
Yes, drugs, alcohol and broken families are, sadly, still around, just like in all previous generations. But it’s not new or unique to this generation, as some would have you think. More prevalent, perhaps, but not new. (and only more reason for solid Christian education and not fluff).
The main difference between youth today and youth of previous generations is the level of self-centeredness and sense of entitlement. When you listen to the voices in the youth ministry industry today, those voices want to pander to, treat with kid gloves, and lay down the un-offending red carpet for young people in order to “engage” them. The Truth is softened or not brought up at all, unconditional love means no expectations or accountability, and Christianity becomes a case of building self-esteem vs. confidence (gaining confidence requires actually accomplishing something whereas esteem relies on people and outside forces liking, catering to and never disagreeing with you). In its attempts to never step on the precious toes of young people, youth ministry is in danger of creating groupies to a hip youth pastor and ministry.
If I were a young person, I would find this completely condescending and offensive! You know, when Jack Nicholson says “You Can’t Handle the Truth!”….I think our kids WANT the truth and they want to be treated like they can handle the truth.
My son, when he was 11, fell in love with the Gideon’s Bible that he read when we stayed in a hotel. He could no longer read his “cool” youth Bible when we returned from our trip. Shortly after this, I was at a coffee shop that sold used books, and found the exact same Gideon’s Bible that was in our hotel room. This is what my son reads. He likes the traditional wording, (no “awesome” sidebars or graphics) plain red cover and all. We underestimate kids because we think they’ve become so tenderized by the current world they live in and are nothing but culture-driven. But kids are perfect candidates for the refining fire of God! They will rise to the Gospel when it is presented confidently, lovingly, honestly and truthfully ever time. For youth ministry to water the teaching down or leave it out completely is to cause the youth to stumble, as mentioned in Matthew 18:6.
The only thing that must change is this notion that youth, and adults, aren’t interested in and can’t handle the Truth.
Great blog!! Thanks!

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