Thu 5 Jul 2007
Doug Phillips – New Paganism?
A number of years ago Dr. Albert Mohler spoke at an EMNR conference and in his talk shared a story about Bishop John Shelby Spong. According to Mohler, at the Lambeth Conference, Spong had committed a cultural and political boo-boo. He had been pressing for the ordination of homosexuals but was unable to get the majority to agree at the time because the bishops from Africa held firmly against it. In a moment of frustration Spong lashed out with, “The reason the African bishops believe the Bible to literally is because they have been so recently converted from paganism.” To which the Bishop from Uganda responded, “The reason Spong doesn’t believe the Bible is because he has so recently been converted to paganism.”
I have thought a lot about this exchange lately. It is easy for many of us to write off liberalism, the Emerging Church and Postmodernism as an embracing of paganism by church leaders and their followers. And, to be sure, it is. But, do some segments of conservative believers embrace other forms of paganism that may be promoted by some of their leaders? I would suggest this is the case with Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard.
Bill Gothard embraces and promotes the pagan view of authority as being the Christian view of a top down authority based on a misuse of the story of the centurion in Matthew 8:5-10. The story was about who Jesus was and His ability to heal long distance but Gothard makes it a story about authority and wrote in his Basic Seminar Textbook:
After the centurion asked Jesus to come and heal his servant, it occurred to him that just as life was structured around a “chain of responsibility,” so the kingdom in which God operates must have a similar structure of authority.
Jesus directly inverted this idea in Luke 22:25-26:
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Rather than the leader being less or not accountable and each one below them in “authority” being progressively more accountable to a larger number of people above them Jesus turned it around and made the leader the most accountable. God’s leaders live in glass houses and everyone else has Windex!
But how does this reflect upon or answer the question about Doug Phillips and Vision Forum? There are a number of areas that could be looked at, including his view of authority which, like Gothard’s derives from First Century paganism. We have looked at his promotion of his concept of patriarchy in our current Journal article, “Who Will Be First in the Kingdom?” (Vol. 13, No 2). Another area is Vision Forum’s view of women. How does it compare with First Century paganism?
Moya K. Mason points out in her “Ancient Roman Women: A Look at their Lives.”:
< < Although the role of women in ancient Rome was primarily child-bearing, women also played an important role in raising the children >>
In that culture aristocratic woman may have received some education but that was primarily for use in educating their children. Most women received little or no education. Men were the ones to receive higher education. It was considered a waste of time and financial resources to educate a woman in the same way. After all, her use was to have children and stay at home to care for them. The husband owned the wife and children. If she had a baby girl he had the choice as to whether the female child would live or die. He was more interested in having a son to carry on his name but the son too was property until he attained adulthood. The daughter could be sold or bartered with. She lived with the father until he decided to marry her off, or perhaps not marry her off and she was under his authority until he died.
Alvin J. Schmidt in his book Under the Influence: How Christianity Transformed Civilization points out how the church elevated the status of women by addressing many of these issues. He also comments on the church having to go back and address this issue as various church leaders have reintroduced this pagan view of women back in to the church. As we look at Vision Forum are we seeing yet another attempt at bringing the pagan view of women back in to the church? In their statement The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy we read:
Until she is given in marriage, a daughter continues under her father’s authority and protection
But what of education? Like the First Century Romans, Vision Forum in their article ”Biblical Patriarchy and the Doctrine of Federal Representation” considers educating females a waste of time and money:
And does it really make economic sense to invest tens of thousands of dollars for a woman to get an advanced education (often having to go into debt to finance that education) that she will NOT use if she accepts that her highest calling is to be a wife and mother?
In his excellent book Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” Timothy Paul Jones addresses Bart Ehrman’s claim that some passages were modified to oppose women and Jews:
A handful of changes could potentially relate to the role of women in churches today. It appears that women played more prominent roles in the early church than they did in the later eras. As a result some scribes in late ancient and medieval times seem to have altered texts that seemed to place women in prominent positions.
For example, in the most ancient manuscripts of Acts 18:26, a woman named Priscilla seems to be the primary teachers of Apollos. Centuries later, a copyist switched the order of names, placing the name of Pricilla’s husband, Aquila, first. In Romans 16:7, someone named Junia – a woman’s name – is said to be “significant among the apostles,” but a later scribe turned “Junia” into “Junias,” a man’s name. In Acts 17:4, another scribe changed “prominent women” into “wives of prominent men.” In each of these cases, however, it’s possible to look at the manuscripts and recover the original wording.
Similarly, Doug Phillips’ Vision Forum is clear in their article ”Biblical Patriarchy and the Doctrine of Federal Representation” of the wrongness of a woman having an individual personal view and taking any sort of participation or prominent role which may be viewed as competing with her owner, er, I mean husband:
In regards to a woman’s right to vote; if husband and wife are truly “one flesh” and the husband is doing his duty to represent the family to the wider community, then what PRACTICAL benefit does allowing women to vote provide? If husband and wife agree on an issue, then one has simply doubled the number of votes; but the result is the same. Women’s voting only makes a difference when the husband and wife disagree; a wife, who does not trust the judgment of her husband, can nullify his vote. Thus, the immediate consequence is to enshrine the will of the individual OVER the good of the family thus creating divisions WITHIN the family.
Is Doug Phillips just the latest incarnation of this infiltration? I am not sure but it seems worth thinking about.
July 5th, 2007 at 7:36 am
Thanks for the positive mention of my book, Misquoting Truth!
As for your primary point in this entry, it seems to me that Doug Phillips’ rather extreme hierarchicalist views are derived from a false vision of the past century American social history, which is then utilized as a lens through which to view the biblical text. Specifically, he is living within the myth that, once upon a time, there was a Christian America in which the prevailing family pattern was one of patriarchs guiding their families, training girls for motherhood and boys to be providers. In fact, this is a fiction (see, from an evangelical perspective, This Rebellious House by Steve Keillor or, from a more secular perspective, The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Coontz).
I am unabashedly complementarian; that is, I believe that there are specific and distinct roles for husbands and wives. At the same time, what I find most troubling about Phillips—besides his embarrassingly-underinformed exegeses of biblical texts—is (1) he applies to females in general that which the Bible applies to wives in particular, and, (2) he seems to assume that all women are called to an identical role, which Scripture does not explicitly affirm.
July 5th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Quote from above: Is Doug Phillips just the latest incarnation of this infiltration?”
!!!He’s definitely an incarnation of someone/something that preceded him!!!
Phillips is certainly a kitsch-loving, postmodern version at that, given what one forum/blog called his happy world of “Photoshop faces.” It seems that he’s the Internet’s version of the new millennium Bill Gothard. Per the Veinots and Henzel in their book on Gothard, he’s definitely “Roman.”
I appreciate the references in this entry from both Phillips’ “tenets” and the related, cited references that call attention to the pagan concepts of the “top-down” authority structure. This blog topic expands upon the same ideas posed in the most recent MCOI newsletter article, “Who Will Be First in the Kingdom?”
July 5th, 2007 at 9:08 am
“Is Doug Phillips just the latest incarnation of this infiltration?”
It certainly sounds like it to me …
Let me first deconstruct Mr. Phillips’ seeming fallacies from a personal point of view. I am a Biblical complementarian — and at present am still reading through the fantastic early-90s work on the subject, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem. Scripture is clear that men and women are equal in importance, yet different in roles — just as are the Father and Son in the Trinity. And a marriage relationship works best when a husband and wife, because of their mutual love for God and desire to glorify Him, naturally assume these roles. …
Meanwhile, Mr. Phillips is going far overboard and, frankly, making Christians look like jerks.
To be equally frank, I cannot, and will never, identify with his seeming preference for women to be uneducated and non-voters. Instead, I eagerly desire to find someday a beloved wife who is informed, bright, intelligent, wise and knows things that I don’t. I want to learn from her. I want her to have talents I do not have. I desire her help and input as we strive through life, the universe and everything.
As husband, to be sure, I want to be the leader — Biblically, I should be the leader. But absolutely, just as leaders are accountable to those whom they lead — nor merely vice-versa! — so the husband should be accountable to his wife and not Supreme Exalted Potentate of the Household.
Again, I cannot personally fathom wanting it the other way … strange though my preference may sound …
I shall likely have more to say on this topic in later days; in the meantime, I would love to hear more written about Mr. Phillips’ seemingly demeaning views toward women.
Their legalistic views on dress styles and quasi-arranged-marriage “courtships” could also be fascinatingly deconstructed, though perhaps merely by copying-and-pasting material from “A Matter of Basic Principles” with the source quotes and attributions changed from Mr. Gothard to Mr. Phillips. …
July 5th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Don, I agree there are troublesome similarities between pagan authoritarian ideas, which Jesus explicitly said was NOT to be emulated by the church, and Gothard and Phillips both.
Thanks for this article.
July 5th, 2007 at 10:30 am
I agree that Doug Phillips has gone far beyond most complementarians with his very strict view of women. However I would like to expand on the defintion of complementarism that was provided by Mr. Burnett.
He said, “Scripture is clear that men and women are equal in importance, yet different in roles — just as are the Father and Son in the Trinity.”
From my years of research in the issue of women teaching in the body of Christ, what I have found is that what complementarians really mean by the above statement is that men and women are equal *to God* and *to God* they are equal in importance. However *to man* they are not equally important. A man can say therefore that when a woman teaches *women* need her as a teacher and *children* need her as a teacher but *he* does not need her as a teacher. To a complementarian man, it is acceptable for a woman to give him her private thoughts and in that way teach him, but he surely doesn’t need her as a teacher and men as a group do not need her as a teacher. The complementarian bottom line is that in the *church* the men are free to say in their hearts “I do not need you” to a woman teacher.
This is the exact opposite of what scripture allows in 1 Cor. 12:21 -
And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
Men are not given permission to say that *they* do not need women teachers in the body of Christ.
The body of Christ will be whole when it’s male members are able to say *I* need you. Then women will be equal in worth.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Quoting the VF article on women and higher education: “And does it really make economic sense to invest tens of thousands of dollars for a woman to get an advanced education (often having to go into debt to finance that education) that she will NOT use if she accepts that her highest calling is to be a wife and mother?”
The idea of a woman’s “highest calling” as a wife and mother is often tossed around by female subordinationists, but there is zero scriptural support for this premise. Rather, Luke 11 tells us that a woman’s highest calling is to obey God.
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
July 5th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Cheryl, I have seen your blog and your comments around the blogosphere, and wanted to say how much I appreciate your perspective. Your insights are always a blessing to me.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Don, even after all I’ve been through with Doug, this article is still shocking to me! Do you mean to tell me that Doug’s views on women are not biblical views after all? I thought he was just taking things to an extreme, but here you are asserting that he takes a pagan/Roman view. Doug himself calls it a Hebrew view.
I was absolutely fascinated with the three changes to the NT of Priscilla, Junia, and prominent women. Does that mean I don’t have to be just a doormat after all?
I constantly asked a question while I was at BCA that no one seemed able to answer: Why did God bother to give me a brain if He didn’t expect me to use it?
After seeing Doug’s views on women voting (or rather, Doug’s misogynist views against women voting), that seems to explain why he would “make me pay” for writing him a response to his voting article and subsequently excommunicate this educated woman for such rebellion against her elder! I violated all his sacred views on keeping women in their place.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
On the issue of women as spiritual teachers of men in the church setting, I remain unconvinced as to its Biblical validity.
Cheryl wrote:
“Men are not given permission to say that *they* do not need women teachers in the body of Christ.”
One could argue easily that any adherence to Biblical “regs” on any issue could be thus excused as members of the Church saying “I don’t need you” — when Paul is clear that in many instances there are things and practices the Church doesn’t need: disorganization, for example, or false teachers, Judaizers and Gnostics, or members who are in sin (1 Corinthians 5). Ergo, the passage Cheryl cited above is very general and does not at all refute the complementarian position on women as official, spiritual teachers of men (secular education, job training, etc., do not count).
Light wrote:
“The idea of a woman’s “highest calling” as a wife and mother is often tossed around by female subordinationists […]”
Egads! I do hope I have not been labeled so hastily.
What is so “subordinate” about women who sincerely desire this form of vital ministry? And have I yet said that all women somehow should do this?
As I wrote above, please do not allow Phillips’ cliched brand of dangerous, chest-thumping faux-Biblical male chauvinism to the opposite-extreme position of automatically dismissing the indeed “high calling” of wifehood and motherhood as “female subordinationism” and thus writing off any honest, Grace-imbued adherence to Biblical roles for women in the Church, wives and husbands, as nothing more than men putting down women and so on and so forth. …
July 5th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Meanwhile, Jen, I have just been reading your blog and am especially “geeking out,” so to speak, at your expose of Phillips’ marketing of pure, abject Legalism under the guise of Reformed theology.
Goth-ism and this perversion of “patriarchy” are in no way compatible with the liberating doctrines of Grace! To claim otherwise is indeed to live in a parallel abstract universe with absolutely illogical theology. With this absurd claim — which shocked me when I heard it; Phillips as “Reformed” — Phillips is either highly naive or else sinisterly deceptive.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
“Light” thank you for sharing that blessing with me!
E. Stephen Burnett wrote:
“One could argue easily that any adherence to Biblical “regs” on any issue could be thus excused as members of the Church saying “I don’t need you” — when Paul is clear that in many instances there are things and practices the Church doesn’t need: disorganization, for example, or false teachers, Judaizers and Gnostics, or members who are in sin (1 Corinthians 5). Ergo, the passage Cheryl cited above is very general and does not at all refute the complementarian position on women as official, spiritual teachers of men (secular education, job training, etc., do not count).”
Please notice that my comment said that God doesn’t give us permission to say that we don’t need *a person or their gifts*. What you did was change it around to say that we don’t need certain *things* or *practices*. I fully agree with you that we don’t need false teaching (not from a man or a woman!) and we don’t need a false system of beliefs (Judaizers) but we do need every member in the body of Christ to use the gifts that God has given them for the edification of the body. I repeat, Paul does not give permission for men to say that they do not *need* women teachers. 1 Cor. 12:21 says
And the eye cannot say to the hand, “*I* have no need of *you*”; or again the head to the feet, “*I* have no need of *you*.”
Men are not allowed to say to women who have been gifted by the Holy Spirit with a gift of teaching for the edification of the body, “*I* have no need of *you* women teachers.” When we disregard the Holy Spirit’s gifting when he gives his word through a woman, and we say it is not necessary for us to receive this word because the gift has been given to a woman, may I respectfully say that we may find ourselves fighting God himself? God has said through Paul that we are not allowed to do that. When we open ourselves up to the gifts that the very lowliest of the members of the body has to give, I believe that God will bless us and give a unity in the body of Christ that will be seen by the world. We need each other. I don’t just need women teachers, I need you! Your perspective as a male is helpful and necessary for me. In the same way you don’t just need male teachers, you need me.
The perspective that God has given women is different than the perspective of male teachers and it rounds out the entire wisdom of God. We are all needed. I humbly encourage you to learn from women teachers. We (me too) need them.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
E. Stephen, I’m not at all dismissing the relationships of wife and mother. I’m a wife and mother of four myself, and am greatly privileged, honored, and blessed in both capacities. However, it is simply not scriptural to say it is a woman’s HIGHEST calling, and it is used again and again as a way to keep women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. To flip this argument around, how many times do you hear that a man’s highest calling is as a husband and father? I sure never have.
I use the term female subordinationist because it is accurate. If someone believes in hierarchy in marriage and male-only leadership in the church, they do in fact believe in gender-based subordination.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Cheryl wrote:
“Please notice that my comment said that God doesn’t give us permission to say that we don’t need *a person or their gifts*. What you did was change it around to say that we don’t need certain *things* or *practices*.”
But my point remains — is it not a “practice” to have a woman officially teaching men in the Church, with regard to spiritual matters? I have read many rationales submitted by those of more-”egalitarian” leanings and found them lacking. 1 Corinthians 12:21 must be taken in the context of other Scriptures, particularly the — I’m sure you have foreseen this coming
— words of Paul at the end of 1 Corinthians 14.
Moreover, it is not stifling someone’s spiritual gift to set “limits” on its practice. Paul had many admonitions against getting all carried away with the gift of tongues, for example (and perhaps we might avoid the whole debate here about whether it remains applicable today).
If a woman has a gift of teaching, God bless her! A church should fall all over itself to give her opportunities to use it. But does this automatically mean women should exercise positions of spiritual authority over men, as pastors or Sunday school leaders? I still do not see the natural and logical equivocation of “limiting the Church’s official authority roles over adult mixed genders” with “you are therefore stifling the Spirit’s gifts,” though the connection may seem very clear to you.
Meanwhile, Light, I have not yet said — nor will I maintain here — that being a wife and mother is the highest calling for “every” woman. Indeed, Scripture says no such thing, any more than it says every man must be a husband and father (cf. the gift of celibacy for some, etc. …).
My only request is that if a woman were to feel that this is God’s highest calling for her, that Christian egalitarians would ensure they respect that.
I expect most secular feminists to sneer at the “inferior” position of working at home, of course, but I will do my best in Grace to oppose such similar messages being transmitted within the church. Very often it has reached the point where a “secular” film such as The Incredibles can better advocate the freedom of choice for smart, fun, industrious women to work at home and raise children better than can some sectors of the Church.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
E. Stephen Burnett said:
“If a woman has a gift of teaching, God bless her! A church should fall all over itself to give her opportunities to use it. But does this automatically mean women should exercise positions of spiritual authority over men, as pastors or Sunday school leaders? I still do not see the natural and logical equivocation of “limiting the Church’s official authority roles over adult mixed genders” with “you are therefore stifling the Spirit’s gifts,” though the connection may seem very clear to you.”
Ah, yes, the 1 Corinthians 14 passage. You really MUST get my DVD and see for yourself if my exegesis makes sense. The 4 DVD set is called “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” and is available on http://www.amazon.com or from http://mmoutreach.org Once you have viewed it, I would very much love to dialog with you. You can also see preview clips of the 4 DVD series on You Tube. God to youtube.com and type in “Cheryl Schatz” in the search box and my video clips will come up. That will give you a flavor of my work.
Stephen, the only limits that Paul gave was on gifts that were not able to be understood by the congregation. Without getting into the argument whether tongues are for today or not, you will notice that Paul did not forbid the speaking of tongues, or the speaking of tongues by women. He did not want the speaking of tongues without interpretation so that the whole body is edified. Also he set a limit on the number of tongue speakers in one meeting but he never limited what gender could speak in tongues (or what gender had to be silent!) and any member could use the gift in another meeting so there was no real limit on the gift itself. With prophesy, there was no limit and every member of the body was able to exercise their gift.
However the issue of women teaching is not even similar to your examples. Paul did not say that women cannot speak in the church since he said that they can pray and prophesy. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a passage that must be understood in its context because ripping it from its context makes Paul contradict himself in the very same chapter.
Anyway if you are not adverse to listening to a woman teacher (even if it is for the purpose of refuting me so as not to offend your conscience!), please do see my work and correspond with me. “Iron sharpens iron” and you and I can sharpen each other.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Arrrgh! This computer keeps giving me error messages - sorry if this is a duplicate message.
E. Stephen, we agree! If a woman believes God is calling her to be a stay at home wife/mother, who are we to question or disparage that?
Unfortunately, people like Doug Phillips and other hyper patriarchalists don’t believe women have individual callings - they put women into a one-size-fits-all mold and insist God’s best and highest for them all is wife/stay at home mom, and any deviation from that is sin, or at best, non-normative.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Most Legalists tend to do that — that is, the once-size-fits-all approach, based mostly on their own views about what God may have called them to do. Good night — how un-Biblical, and furthermore, uncreative and unwilling to acknowledge the fact that God works in multifarious and diverse ways with different peoples, cultures and callings.
This goes for all manner of lifestyle issues and matters of media, education, and life’s work — all that relates to one’s spiritual Life, the Universe and Everything.
It was Screwtape who helpfully reminded us that it’s the Devil’s desire to take all humans and “assimilate” them, like the Borg of Star Trek, into his cosmic collective; it is the Creator (Whom Screwtape despises as hideously paradoxical) Who instead wishes to make people like Himself, and yet simultaneously let them maintain their human individuality and diversity.
Anytime any leader attempts to compress living, thinking, individual human beings into un-Biblical molds such as that, they approach the Devil’s methodology, not the Creator’s.
Fortunately, with such legalistic cookie-cutter approaches, as with the Borg, resistance is sometimes not futile!
July 5th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Light: “how many times do you hear that a man’s highest calling is as a husband and father?”
I believe that is exactly what Doug is teaching, that to be the “patriarch” of the family is the pinnacle for a man. And even the arrogance of using such a word points to that very meaning. But, Light, as I’m sure you will agree, this “patriarchy” is elevated to the same degree than women are denigrated. You cannot elevate both of them equally the way Doug Phillips would have us believe.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
These have all been wonderful and edifying comments concerning these things partriarchal.
I am grateful to all who posted here and have enjoyed looking at your respective websites.
Thank you!
July 5th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Cheryl, I certainly concur with you on the point that women may speak in church.
And, as I did above, I will heartily join with you in opposing the insidiously un-Biblical and disrespectful and plainly dangerous teachings of men such as Mr. Phillips in this regard.
However, are women permitted, Biblically, to be official pastors or ministers, or teachers of men regarding spiritual things? That question remains, and seems the issue at heart here — and I do not believe proving women can speak in church is equivocal to proving they can teach as pastors in a church.
I am sure, though, that you outline your reasons further in other venues … Suffice it to say, though, I wish to be clear: is that your contention? that women are, Biblically, allowed to be pastors of churches?
Meanwhile, I will certainly check out your work — however, while taking somewhat of the easy route (as I am so often pressed for time
) and suggest that my views are effectively echoed by Misters Piper and Grudem in their works on the topic of Biblical, Grace-inspired, balanced and loving “complementarianism” for husbands, wives and churches.
And of course, this doesn’t qualify as you “teaching” me, ma’am! Methinks I detect a tread-carefully-’round-the-possible-chauvinist tone in your above requests to me; I assure you it is not necessary.
Rather, I have always learned so much from women — my mother, my sister, internet friends; instinctively, I never take into account a spiritually wise person’s gender whenever she has something to say.
Again, my objection here is primarily to what I perceive as advocacy of women pastors and official spiritual authorities. That is all. Does this help clarify my position?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Stephen,
It is an odd thing - I started my research on the women’s issue just focused on the teaching thing and then found myself pushed by everyone into the Pastor issue. Arghhhhh! I really didn’t want to go there, you know, because I am not a Pastor but just a mere teacher. The reason that I even researched the subject was because a male “friend” told me that women weren’t allowed to teach the bible publicly to men and he was offended by women teaching the bible verse by verse (and this after months of requesting help from me on all kinds of biblical subjects!)
I decided I wasn’t going to leave the hard passages of scripture until I knew what God was saying to women. It mattered not that women were used by God in all kinds of places and all kinds of ways. If the “hard passages” were restricting me from teaching men, then I would comply and stop my ministry. You see I could not bear to discriminate against men and send them away when they were coming to me to learn. (God gave me a love for Jehovah’s Witnesses and in 1988 I started a support group for those who had left the Watchtower. These dear souls were still indoctrinated by their false beliefs and they needed someone who understood how to teach them correct biblical doctrine in a way that they could understand. Men and women came to me and I taught them all.)
As I researched and looked at the hard passages on women - as I looked at the inspired words and the inspired grammar and the inspired context, I was amazed! The context showed something completely different than the tradition I had been taught. God gifts women equally with men and there are no “pink” passages for women’s gifts and “blue” passages for men’s gifts. I found that the difficult passages are not difficult when one considers the entire word usage, the grammar and the entire context. I was free to serve both the lost and Christians too without guilt and knowing that I was in the center of God’s will!
But as hard as I tried to stay away from dealing with women Pastors (I was stubborn and a bit selfish because I only really wanted to know about God’s will for me!), I softened because everywhere I looked I saw the connection between the freedom to teach and the freedom to shepherd.
So I researched God’s will for a female shepherd too and I did so with fear and trembling. Trembling because my real issue was really about God’s gifts through women. It was not an issue about authority. Fear too because if I bring up the issue of women Pastors, then I might offend people and they won’t listen when I speak on the subject of women teachers in the body of Christ. Do you know what I mean?
So how about we stick with teachers first? It is like this - if a woman cannot be a teacher for the common good in the body of Christ, then of course she can’t be a Pastor. Right?
But we must also decide what kind of teacher can she be? Can she teach men to knit? Is she supposed to teach men how to darn their own socks? (or am I dating myself since most wouldn’t even know what darning socks means!) The bottom line is that we need to know if a woman is allowed to teach God’s word from the Bible? Is she allowed to teach doctrine? Is she allowed to work in an apologetics ministry where she corrects biblical error (that’s the ministry I am in!) This is our start and from there we branch out.
If our start falls to the ground in that we find that women cannot teach the bible to men (not one on one teaching but teaching in the full body of Christ), then the issue of Pastor is already solved. My approach is always respectful because I love my brothers in Christ.
Lastly I have already read the opposition and most everything from CBMW (Grudem et al) including hours and hours and hours of their cassette tapes. Their point of view is documented in my DVD from their own audio tapes. CBMW and John MacArthur’s organization both asked for a copy of “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” as soon as it was finished editing and I sent them a review copy. They have not answered my exegesis and prefer to just agree to disagree.
CBMW’s material seeks to refute the egalitarian position, but my arguments are not found there and they are not willing to dialog either. I am always willing to hear the other side and if they (or anyone else) could refute me, I would listen with interest.
Today a Baptist Pastor forwarded an email to me from a brother who had watched my DVD. This brother said:
“I have just finished watching the 4-Part DVD series on women in ministry. All I can really say at this point is “WOW!” I am terribly convicted at how women have been treated down through the centuries by sinful and domineering males. In retrospect, I believe that I have played a part in that as well.
Cheryl Schatz’s arguments for 1 Tim. 2:11-12 and 1 Cor. 14:34ff were brilliant. I also found her presentation on 1 Tim. 3 regarding a pastor/elder/overseer being either male or female intriguing as well.”
It is only the Holy Spirit that can convict a person of their failure to allow women to teach. We can do nothing but rightly divide the word of truth and then let the Holy Spirit confirm his word through his convicting power. If men won’t even give us a chance to speak God’s word boldly and with passion to our dear brothers in Christ, then the whole body will be hurt. When one part of the body hurts (women are hurt because they are not allowed to use their gifts for the edification of the entire body. They are stifled and held back); then the whole body hurts.
Blessings to you for being caring at least to the point that you are offended by those who have shut the door in a woman’s face stopping her from getting an education and stopping her from voting. You are needed and appreciated for taking that step!
Cheryl
July 5th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
“And does it really make economic sense to invest tens of thousands of dollars for a woman to get an advanced education (often having to go into debt to finance that education) that she will NOT use if she accepts that her highest calling is to be a wife and mother?”
This strikes me as being rather ridiculous, especially coming from someone who advocates homeschooling. I don’t care how “in charge” the “patriarch” is, the mother is almost always the one who ends up with the majority of the teaching load. Seems to me that from his point of view, wives and mothers would be the ones most in need of a good education that they could pass on to their own children.
Very interesting discussion on the place of women and the church, something that has long frustrated me.
I’m glad that someone is bringing Phillips’ extreme theology to light!
Rhiannon
July 5th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Quoting Cheryl’s preceding post:
“So I researched God’s will for a female shepherd too and I did so with fear and trembling. Trembling because my real issue was really about God’s gifts through women. It was not an issue about authority…. But we must also decide what kind of teacher can she be? Can she teach men to knit? Is she supposed to teach men how to darn their own socks? (or am I dating myself since most wouldn’t even know what darning socks means!) The bottom line is that we need to know if a woman is allowed to teach God’s word from the Bible? Is she allowed to teach doctrine? Is she allowed to work in an apologetics ministry where she corrects biblical error (that’s the ministry I am in!) This is our start and from there we branch out.”
Legalism often classifies these separate issues (teaching vs. pastoring) as one and the same. This is so common of the Black/White thought and the ego defense of “splitting” in psychology, such a potent, thought-stopping technique used within cults and high demand groups! One cannot hold egalitarian ideals (eg. American ideals) and simultaneously submit to Christian standards in many of these groups. A croanie of Phillips, Justice Roy Moore spins his concept of patriarchy to misprepresent any egalitarian ideal of any type straight to outright rejection of God’s Lordship over all creation. (Do not pass go. Do not collect any grace on the way to total, unabashed feminism.)
And believe it or not, there are hoards of people who subscribe to this concept of women never teaching men anything including knitting (unless they bait an unbeliever to sin/teach at the local craft shop). I’m still incredulous that the VF Jamestown event drew over 3500 people from as far away as Washington state, per the Newsweek/MSNBC online article. The number of followers that hold Phillips and his ideals above reproach continue to grow. It’s hard to believe that these ideas could be remotely palatable, but many earnest people fear that patriarchy provides the only viable option to counter the decline in our society.
Thank you to all who have contributed to this much needed dialogue.
July 6th, 2007 at 8:24 am
Dear Mr. Veinot,
Thank you so much for this article and for your recent journal article addressing the same subject.
As a long time homeschooler, I have witnessed the destruction that has come to so many homes and churches through the patriocentric teachings of which you write. I have especially been concerned about the moms who eventually face such terrific discouragement once they realize that the paradigms promoted by Phillips, Gothard, Lancaster, Swanson, the Bayly brothers, and their followers, are not a substitute for the relationshp-building environment that homeshcooling ought to provide.
The most recent emphasis on young women not being formally educated and the pronouncement by these men that a woman’s world ought to revolve around the men in the household, is abusing these precious sisters who have been given their own callings by the Lord.
We need more voices like yours who are willing to point out these pagan ideals that are growing in some segments of the body of Christ. We need more pastors and leaders confirming all that Jesus said regarding women. And, we also need more women themselves who will reject these teachings and use their tremendous influence to point their families back to the Word of God.
July 6th, 2007 at 9:14 am
The one thing that has saddened me the most is that the patriarchal camp has gone so overboard in attacking egalitarians that they have gone far past the “women teaching men is in the same category as the sin of homosexuality” mindset and have made a concerted effort to question whether egalitarians can even be saved. The view now is that if one does not turn from having an egalitarian view and repent and believe the hierarchal point of view, one is denying the gospel of Christ. When one attaches their particular belief regarding the non-essentials to the basics of the gospel itself, they are guilty of causing division in the body of Christ.
I have included 6 short audio clips on my blog
http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/03/24/should-cbmw-fight-egalitarians/
from the February 2007 “Different by Design” Conference held in Minneapolis Minnesota and sponsored by CBMW (the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood). The audio from the conference is very shocking to me as it was so clear that dear brothers in Christ have gone on the attack against their own sisters in Christ. Brothers and sisters, this is nothing less than a shame!
July 6th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Cheryl,
The intro video was so well done, well-researched and balanced that I didn’t watch them all and just went ahead and ordered them. I can’t wait to receive them.
July 6th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
“Under Much Grace”,
I am confident you will like them and they will cause you to see the hard passages of scripture in a new light. I have been blessed to have men write me and tell me that these DVDs have set them free and changed their views about women’s ministering in the body of Christ. God gets the glory for his convicting power!
July 8th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Whether you are a complimentarian or egaltarian, you will want to see these DVD’s of Cheryl’s.
We have been conditioned to think of women Bible teachers as feminists!
Cheryl’s DVD’s are FAR from a feminist rant! They are well researched, expository teaching on scriptures we have been taught that relate to women’s roles. They won’t change your ‘mind’, they will drive you to study scripture in depth and let scripture teach you.
Since viewing her DVD’s I have read the creation account at least 4 times and each time as I study it in depth, I come away with deeper understanding. I could say more on this but I just want to encourage you all to get them.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Cheryl, I looked at your DVD previews on You-Tube and I left you a question there, but it might be better answered here. I saw lots of interesting things to consider, but there was one passage that I really had some questions about. When we are told that the wall of separation in Ephesians has been broken down, I see that passage as speaking exclusively to the Jew/Gentile wall of separation. How do you get male/female out of that passage?
July 8th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Don, I heard you on the radio talking about this subject yesterday. Great job!
I just keep thinking about this top-down authority style of patriarchy versus the servant leadership Jesus modeled for us. I love the way you brought this out.
July 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am
(Slightly edited from a column-length installment to FaithFusion.net, posted July 6, 2007)
Throughout the past several days, I have been reading much about this homeschool-intensive “church leader” named Doug Phillips, and his extreme views of “patriarchy,” and frankly, hardline chauvinism. My view of him has sharply declined from perceiving him as perhaps a mere nuisance to indeed a great threat to the health of Christendom — especially those sectors that advocate home education for children.
At the same time, though, it would certainly behoove us to consider: what is the opposite error to Phillipsian “Patriarchy”?
Does such an error exist? And if so, what can balanced, Bible-advocated Christ-followers do about it?
Equal and opposite reactions
It would seem odd, when faced with the disgusting reality of abused wives and abusive male-dominated churches, to broach that point. Yet as the incomparable Lewis wrote, the temptation constantly exists for Christians to overcorrect, swinging like pendulums between extreme views, in our extra dislike of one perspective, only to flail headlong into an equal and opposite re-reaction.
This is what Mr. Phillips seems to have done — in his rejection of Christianized mutations of secular feminism, he has thereby found an equally or perhaps even more dangerous view. He has not kept “his eyes on the goal.”
And what is that goal? The Gospel!
The Gospel is Christianity, pure and simple, Biblical — open to varying interpretations and schools of thought on various points — mere Christianity, simple Christianity, as affirmed in the famous creeds and confessions, supported by Scripture, adhered to by orthodox scholars over the centuries.
And that’s exactly the sort of thing the Devil and his minions are so infamously desperate to avoid. Intercepted correspondence from His Utter Subliminity Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood puts it plainly:
So what do we get from more-liberal incarnations of Christianity? Christianity and Environmentalism. Christianity and Faith Tolerance. Christianity and Stop Global Warming. Christianity and Extreme Egalitarianism/Feminism. And on and on it goes, leaving the Gospel far behind or else mixing it with all these other equally-important Social Issues.
And what about Phillipsian ultraconservative Christianity And? It brings about Christianity and the Law. Christianity and Extreme Complementarianism/Patriarchy. Christianity and Homeschooling Only. Christianity and Approved Denim-Skirt Intensive Dress Codes. Perhaps Christianity and Head Coverings. Christianity and Extreme Interpretations of Paul’s Advice to Women in Churches Which May or May Not Have been All or Partly Culturally Derived (Especially the Parts about Braided Hair and Jewelry). Christianity and the Law. Christianity and Approved Curriculum. Christianity and Voting For Only My Preferred Political Party. Christianity and Quasi-Whitewashed American History. And on and on it goes … but mostly back to Christianity and the Law — which is not the Gospel of Grace.
Either way, it’s all about un-Biblical, or extra-Biblical, codes of conduct, issues and “basic principles” that aren’t based in Scripture. They’re not absolutely essential to the Gospel. And surely true Christ-followers may disagree on them on occasion — even regarding the egalitarian/complementarian debate.
Patriarchal perceptions
Here I must plead for balance. Not all egalitarians are ultra-left-wing feminists — though it may be true that many of them are. And, not all complementarians are raving, chest-thumping thugs — though many of them can be, particularly the complementarian mutation under discussion here.
Either side will invariably attract participants who are overreacted to the other’s side extreme results. Either side will contain tendencies to forsake the Gospel in favor of manmade Issues.
That is why Cheryl’s previous assertion that at least one Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood speaker had recently gone too far, falling into an extreme position of questioning opponents’ salvation, does not surprise me. Nor does it much damage my position if indeed the whole organization would have somehow turned aside from Grace-based doctrines, even the least little bit, in favor of yet another Christianity And viewpoint.
After all, my familiarity with the organization is limited to its landmark book Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which I have found very Grace-based, and devoid of legalism and “Christianity And” perceptions. And that book was published in the early ‘90s. Much can change in 1.5 decades, to be sure. Extremes can, and sometimes will, develop, especially when one does not remain Gospel- and Grace-centered.
My perception, though, of egalitarianism/feminism/advocacy of women pastors, is unavoidably influenced by what I have seen, read about, heard about, in more-liberal denominations. Their extreme view often holds toward pushing women and their gifts away from the home as quickly and as rapidly as possible. Young women enter such seminaries and churches, for example, unsure of their life’s calling but certain of their desires to serve God in some way, and are strongly encouraged to forget any “domestic” inclinations they may possess and instead strive in leadership roles for the Church, Church the great and powerful, the Church solo. It’s as if a dichotomy existed between helping the Church and the family, both of which are institutions the Creator has established.
What Cheryl, though, seems to be submitting, is that some women, Biblically conservative and not at all liberal-leaning, are naturally gifted to teach and become official church pastors and naturally want to do this instead of fulfilling other needs in the Church. Furthermore, she seems to contend that Biblical complementarianism results in an automatic rejection of their gifts and relegation of such women to second-class status in local congregations.
I have not thus far encountered such a situation, anyway.
Instead, this is what I have seen in my “circles.” I know young women who are delving into higher education even while planning, hoping for, True Love and Marriage. I know guys who are studying Biblical principles of leadership, and moreover, studying Christ and the Gospel — the Person they are to emulate, who loved the Church and gave Himself up for it, just as husbands are to love their wives. Neither gender, here, resents their “role.” Both have learning preferences, dreams, aspirations, plans, goals, intelligences, talents of their own. Both have spiritual gifts and capacities for fulfillment in their churches.
This is what I perceive when I hear and study “complementarianism” — not extreme views, but Grace-based, Biblical definitions for husbands and wives, and particularly official spiritual leaders in the Church.
Final notes
Yet what about the suggestion as follows: that a belief saying women can’t be pastors or spiritual teachers of men is tantamount to saying “I don’t need you” to an essential part of the Body, as described in 1 Corinthians 12?
I have already maintained before that certain practices, exercises of spiritual gifts and so on are not scripturally limitless; Paul places very clear limits on many church members’ actions. Does Paul place such limits only because he doesn’t want people to be confused by abuses of tongues-speaking and the like, as Cheryl also suggested? Not necessarily — Paul gives other reasons for his guidelines, for example, in his qualifications for Overseers as described in passages such as 1 Timothy 3. That passage makes prospective pastors’ résumé requirements very clear: male, and if married, only one wife per customer; not a jerk, not a drunkard, a good household manager, an experienced believer and so on. And Paul’s reasons for these are varied.
Ergo, while the suggestion exists that if I believe women shouldn’t be official pastors, then I am rejecting their spiritual gifts — and perhaps them as people too — I’m still way back in Presupposition-Land saying: Now wait a moment, I’m still maintaining that yes, the Church has eyes, ears, feet, hands, brains, hearts and et cetera; but aren’t these texts over here also clear that some body functions, i.e. that of overseer (”head,” perhaps), can be filled only by men? Furthermore, wouldn’t the concept of women-wanting-to-be-pastors be similar to an eye, or ear, or heart or whatever, being discontent with her role in the Body and wanting to be something else instead?
I’m not rejecting anyone’s spiritual gifts. I am merely suggesting that they can be fulfilled in different ways in order to fit more aptly into the clear Biblical qualifications for Overseers described in other passages.
Is this insulting to women? Would even a Grace-based approach to this viewpoint be automatically perceived as merely more chest-thumping chauvinism, fear of women’s intelligence and some-such?
Well, probably. Surely with all the Phillipsian forms of fallacies going on, this perception is possible. Yet at this point I also add again that I believe focus on the Cross and the Gospel, and Grace-based extrapolation of this view of male/female roles, will prove most helpful in letting men and women want to assume these roles, both in the Church and in the home.
And what if some women would rather strive for leadership roles, pastoral roles? They certainly can be true Christians. And thus, we can be good neighbors — though we wouldn’t see eye-to-eye in the same church congregation. But be assured, I would be just as annoyed at the charge that just because they may hold the wrong beliefs regarding overseers’ qualifications, then that means they’re automatically unsaved. Room for doctrinal disagreement exists in Christendom, for all issues not directly related to the “mere” Gospel. And when we all get to Heaven, and then the New Heavens and New Earth, we’ll have it all straightened out, to be sure. I’m looking forward to being proven right about many issues and proven wrong on a lot of others. …
Yet for now on the fallen Earth, both extremes exist. Both can be fully opposed by balanced, Biblical Christ-followers. Let us consciously “keep our eyes on the goal [of the Gospel] and go straight through between both errors,” as Lewis wrote. And let us never succumb to the fallacy of adding any “And” qualifier to the Gospel and to the glorious truths of the Creator/Savior’s undeserved, liberating Grace!
July 9th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Jen asked:
“When we are told that the wall of separation in Ephesians has been broken down, I see that passage as speaking exclusively to the Jew/Gentile wall of separation. How do you get male/female out of that passage?”
While Paul focuses mainly on the Jew/Gentile wall of separation, he also lists the other walls of separation in Galatians 3:28.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
The Greek (gentile) the slave and the female were all separated from their respective pairs (Jew, free man and male) and they were the disadvantaged. Yet in Christ the wall of separation, the wall of advantaged versus disadvantaged is taken down. Slaves are now full sons of God and women are now complete heirs of God according to promise.
In the culture of that day the walls had not yet come down. There were still separation of Jews/Gentiles where the Jews refused to eat with the Gentiles. The slave was treated as an animal and not a human and did not even have the right to marry. The woman was not free and the barrier between her and the male was great. She was owned by her father until her marriage when she was owned by her husband. If she did not please her husband he could divorce her at will for burning his food. She was physically separated from her husband publicly and the women and the children did not eat with the men. The barriers between these groups brought a view of superiority of one over the other. But in Christ these barriers have all been taken away. No longer is one part of the two left out and no longer is one superior while the other disadvantaged and inferior.
I do go into the barriers in a fuller sense in the DVD series. I hope you enjoy them!
July 9th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
E. Stephen Burnett:
“Yet what about the suggestion as follows: that a belief saying women can’t be pastors or spiritual teachers of men is tantamount to saying “I don’t need you” to an essential part of the Body . . .”
I agree with you, and the content of your most recent comment here. I think it is a false dilemma to say because Jesus was male, only ordained male apostles, that when qualifications for elders are spoken of they are referred to as males, and that if based on this, one’s views of the pastoral epistles are traditional/complementarian, that it is tantamount to saying one half of the body of Christ is not needed.
Here is the quote I think you were responding to:
“The complementarian bottom line is that in the *church* the men are free to say in their hearts “I do not need you” to a woman teacher.
This is the exact opposite of what scripture allows in 1 Cor. 12:21 -”
And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.””
The bottom line for most complementarians *I* know is that the husband is the authoritative head of the marriage, not merely the “source,” and that women are not to be ruling elders, or teach in the gathered worship.
It is not denying that Priscilla, outside of the gathered meeting was part of instructing Apollos, or of recognizing that the Word of God came to women, and that in fact, Scripture records some didactic passages uttered by women.
It is not denying that many men all over the world are led to Christ by women evangelizing them, either. I know of one native Kenyan, who ministers in a horrible slum in his country, who told me personally (we were at a dinner party together so he could talk about his work) that a young girl led him to Christ. Our host (a former missionary to another country in Africa) told me this was significant, because in that part of the world, women are truly regarded much less than men in the eyes of that culture.
Yet the Christian women there do the work of evangelism, they speak at open air meetings, but in the churches they are not ordained as elders. They still get to speak and use their gifts, in spite of what they believe the Bible teaches about women’s roles in the home and church, and in spite of the culture, which does regard them poorly and less than how Christ would value them, and the Christian men there (in spite of this culture being much more demeaning of women) allow them to use their gifts.
So I think it is a false dilemma to say that this is what complementarianism leads to.
Besides, there are plenty of complementarian places (I think of Ministry Watchman, who posted this very article of Don’s on their blog — a Reformed site) that allow women to have their say, and interact with them, and value them. I know from MW’s off-line dealings with me that they have never treated me like some kind of unnecessary second class citizen. If we had any disagreements, I was never made to feel put down by them at all, and any disagreements aside (I actually can’t remember any), the other e-mails I received were very cordial, appreciative, and encouraging.
Yes, there is Doug Phillips and his extreme views. Yes, there is abuse. Yes, there are complementarian men who are jerks. But none of this translates into the bottom line for *most* complementarian men to be able to say something in their heart about women being useless as teachers or sharing the Good News or using their gifts, even to bless other men. Not with the missionaries I’ve known (including my own aging mother-in-law), and not at my church (complementarian).
July 9th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
I just wrote:
“Yet the Christian women there do the work of evangelism, they speak at open air meetings, but in the churches they are not ordained as elders. They still get to speak and use their gifts, in spite of what they believe the Bible teaches about women’s roles in the home and church, and in spite of the culture, which does regard them poorly and less than how Christ would value them, and the Christian men there (in spite of this culture being much more demeaning of women) allow them to use their gifts.”
When I wrote this:
“They still get to speak and use their gifts, in spite of what they believe the Bible teaches about women’s roles in the home and church, . . .”
It would be better rendered as this:
“They still get to speak and use their gifts as complementarian women, . . .”
July 9th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
E. Stephen Burnett said: “Either side will contain tendencies to forsake the Gospel in favor of manmade Issues.”
I fully agree that the gospel is what is important. That is why I so passionately advocate the freedom for every born again believer to preach and teach the gospel. When I am passionate about the gospel, I don’t want to have to discriminate against those who have come to listen to me speak forth God’s word. Why should I be forced to tell men that they must leave receive my teaching just because they are males? Scripture does not tell me to discriminate.
Stephen said: “Ergo, while the suggestion exists that if I believe women shouldn’t be official pastors, then I am rejecting their spiritual gifts — and perhaps them as people too — I’m still way back in Presupposition-Land saying: Now wait a moment, I’m still maintaining that yes, the Church has eyes, ears, feet, hands, brains, hearts and et cetera; but aren’t these texts over here also clear that some body functions, i.e. that of overseer (”head,” perhaps), can be filled only by men? Furthermore, wouldn’t the concept of women-wanting-to-be-pastors be similar to an eye, or ear, or heart or whatever, being discontent with her role in the Body and wanting to be something else instead?
I’m not rejecting anyone’s spiritual gifts. I am merely suggesting that they can be fulfilled in different ways in order to fit more aptly into the clear Biblical qualifications for Overseers described in other passages.”
Stephen, first of all I want to commend you on your irenic tone. That is a blessing to me since I have experienced much attack from other Christian brothers and sisters in Christ and I am awed at how one can justify that kind of treatment for a fellow believer. You tone is greatly appreciated.
My point in the “I don’t need you” had nothing to do with women Pastors. I was speaking on women teachers. I have come to realize that it is common for people to misunderstand me since we all have our own presuppositions. However I was not talking about any office in the church – one where one is gains acceptance from the church. I am talking about God’s gifts alone. As a woman teacher, I have seen the barriers go up and men say that they have no need of women teachers. That has been told to me time and time again. I also am in communication with many women teachers and they have told me that they too have experienced prejudice. That was my point.
God has said that we need each other. God has specifically appointed the body to be in need of each other. I could never say that it is enough for me to have women teachers and I do not need men teachers. No, not at all! I need you men teachers! The truth is that you need us too. Women possess a different way of looking at things and when we come together and all use our gifts we are all edified. Again….this isn’t about Pastors, I said that a man cannot say to a woman teacher “I don’t need you”.
I have been blessed in the last year to have many Pastors who have found my material and who have told me how much they have learned from me. Their humility touches me. I too have so much to learn from them.
July 9th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Stephen, that was a tremendous article! Don is very kind to let you post it here as well. Your insights regarding Doug and patriarchy have given me some new things to think about as well. I really like how you interspersed the CS Lewis quotes.
“Christianity and …” Anything to take our eyes off Jesus.
Cheryl, I saw your comments to me regarding this wall of separation on your YouTube video as well. I really think that you cannot possibly mix Eph. 2:14 and Gal. 3:28 just because they both are talking about Jews and Gentiles. It does not follow that the wall of separation then includes males and females, slaves and free. Yes, God changed all those relationships, in Christ, but He never tells us that there was a wall of separation between them. That is a term that is used to describe the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles brought about by the Mosaic Law, which was then abolished when Jesus was crucified.
Nowhere does Scripture tell us that there was a wall of separation, a wall of enmity, between males and females, or between slaves and free, that was brought about by the Mosaic Law, and that was then abolished by Christ’s death on the cross. There are plenty of verses regarding women in the Bible, but this passage in Ephesians is NOT one of them. This is twisting Scripture to make it so.
We need to deal with the Gal. 3:28 passage in Galatians, where it belongs. If we go back to verse 22, we see that it says, “But the Scripture has confined all under sin…” This was before Christ. Now after we believe, in verse 26, it says, “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.” And then verse 28 goes on to explain the “all:” “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
In other words, Cheryl, this passage is telling us that Scripture confines Gentiles under sin just as much as it does the Jews, that the female comes to faith in Christ just the same way a male does, that a slave is a son of God in the same way a free man is and all the possible combinations therein. We are all heirs, we are all Christ’s, we are all Abraham’s seed. There is no difference in us being sinners and there is no difference in us being saved.
When we focus too much on one subject, we tend to see it in everything we read in Scripture. I wonder if this is what is going on here, Cheryl. Please be careful not to read something into a passage that simply isn’t there.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Stephen, I just wanted to make one clarification in your article. You attributed the position of “complementarian” to Doug Phillips, albeit “extreme” complementarian. Even Doug himself does not claim that term. He claims only Patriarchy, while I would say his position is hyper-patriarchy. It’s really not fair to biblically grounded complementarians to throw Doug Phillips in with them. He would make the whole group look extra-biblical!
July 9th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Jen:
Thank you for your comments. You said: “Nowhere does Scripture tell us that there was a wall of separation, a wall of enmity, between males and females, or between slaves and free, that was brought about by the Mosaic Law, and that was then abolished by Christ’s death on the cross. There are plenty of verses regarding women in the Bible, but this passage in Ephesians is NOT one of them. This is twisting Scripture to make it so.”
What I was speaking from was Galatians 3:28 - 4:7 Here Paul says that there is neither slave nor free, neither male nor female. What is Paul saying? We need to research to find out because if we only take this as salvation then we have a problem. There was no difference between male and female in salvation. Female’s received salvation in the Old Covenant just as in the New Covenant and no scripture ever questions the salvation of females so there is no point to say that females receive salvation the same way as males. So what kind of situation is Paul referring to that necessitates him saying that there is no male or female?
Paul goes on in chapter 4 to give us the answer. Paul says in Galatians 4:6, 7 “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His son into our hearts, crying “Abba! Father!” Therefore you are *no longer a slave*, but *a son*; and if a son, then an *heir* through God.”
Paul is talking about all of us being joint heirs together - something that was *not possible* in the Old Covenant. Salvation was available in the Old Testament to all who joined themselves with Israel but the foreigner and the women were not allowed to be heirs. There was a tremendous separation between each group where one group had all the privileges and the other group had none.
In the Jewish faith the men were able to go into the temple while the women were given only a court on three sides. There was a separation because the women were not treated as “sons” of God. They were not given the same closeness to God as the men nor were they included in the services. They were separated from men, were not allowed to participate and were held back from reading the scriptures. But with the death of Christ, the barrier was been broken.
It began with the gentiles who were despised by the Jews. Now the gentiles have been made joint heirs with the Jews. The women were also brought near in an equal close relationship and they are now called “Sons” of God.
Slaves too were brought near to God. While slaves were allowed to experience salvation within the congregation of Israel, they were never allowed to participate in the worship services and they were never allowed to be inheritors in the nation of Israel. So Paul said in Galatians 3:28, 29:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham’s descendants, *heirs* according to promise.
Do you see that the “if” and “then” relationship? “If” they all belong to Christ “then” they are all heirs according to the promise. Scripture never once rejected anyone of these groups regarding salvation if they came into the nation of Israel, but the right of “heir” never belonged to the slaves, the women or the Gentiles.
In Ephesians Paul talks about what the wall of separation is between the Jew and the Gentile.
Ephesians 2:14-19 “For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the *barrier of the dividing wall*, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into *one new man*, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. And he came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are **fellow citizens** with the saints, and are of *God’s household.*
The key is verse 19 where Paul says that the Gentiles are no longer strangers and aliens but fellow citizens with the saints. You see salvation was always offered to the Gentiles in Israel’s midst but they were never given sonship. They were never joint heirs. This was a HUGE barrier between the Gentiles and the Jews. But Jesus broke down that barrier and made them joint heirs with the Jews. He made them into ONE new man.
Paul states this in Ephesians 3:4-6. “By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are *fellow heirs* and *fellow members of the body*, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel”. What has been revealed? It is that the Gentiles are “fellow heirs”. This has always been the barrier that has made one group the advantaged and the other group the disadvantaged. Has this same barrier been broken down for women too? Peter agrees with Paul that it has:
1 Peter 3:7 “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a *fellow heir* of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”
The inheritance that had been denied women, slaves, and Gentiles has now been given to all. All are equal in that all are “sons” of God.
So while Ephesians doesn’t specifically mention women and slaves, we see that the barrier that has been done away with between the Jews and Gentiles is the inheritance “heirs of God”. Paul then tells us that women, slaves and Gentiles are all *sons* of God too (Gal. 4) so we know that the barrier has been broken down for women and slaves too. This isn’t just salvation, because they already had that if they were within Israel and followed God. This is the inheritance.
I appreciated that you checked up on me. That is a good and noble thing! When someone says something about scripture they should be willing and able to prove their point from the scripture *in context*. I believe that I have proved that the barrier is inheritance “heirs of God” and if you want to see the scriptures that prove that Gentiles and slaves received salvation in the Old Testament, I can show them to you if you want. Salvation was never an issue with those in the nation of Israel. However there was an insurmountable barrier as far as the inheritance in God. Praise the Lord that women too are heirs of God and “sons” of God!
July 10th, 2007 at 12:05 am
“1 Peter 3:7 ‘You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a *fellow heir* of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.’
The inheritance that had been denied women, slaves, and Gentiles has now been given to all. All are equal in that all are “sons” of God.”
This passage is referring to an heir of the grace of life, which is equal to the free gift eternal life, which is a result of salvation, which is what you said OT women (of faith) had.
Therefore, to say that this is something new for women, referencing this passage, when you said women already had salvation but were not heirs, is self-refuting.
Because the inheritance mentioned here is the gift of eternal life — which comes with salvation, which you claimed women already had.
July 10th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Yes women had salvation, however women were never heirs of God. It is not self-refuting at all. Women did not have the privileges of men in the Old Testament but they absolutely had salvation. Why did Paul say that there is neither male nor female? What point is he making that he also makes regarding Gentiles and Jews? Paul makes it so clear that it is the inheritance. While the inheritance goes far past salvation. It is the only thing that was not given these groups and the only thing that could be said that now there was equality. Check out the scriptures. Also my DVD has all of the documentation from historical sources to prove the disadvantaged state of slaves, Gentiles and women. Galatians chapter 4 is so key in that Paul states without reservation that we are now all heirs. It was not possible to be an heir in the Old Covenant and it is now not only possible but it is ours as a gift through the blood of Jesus Christ!
Blessings,
Cheryl
July 10th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Still following along the discussion, finding it very interesting, and glad the commenting capabilities seem to have been restored to the site.
Cheryl, I appreciate the fact that you seem not to advocate Official Women Pastors; instead, you have stated that you only wish the Church was more open to women’s gifts specifically in teaching? If so, we are closer in agreement than I initially surmised. We may still disagree, though, as to whether women are Biblically “meant” to teach men per se. But I will certainly consider the matter further.
Jen, I appreciate your clarification about Phillips’ position very much! Clearly, as one who has been in the trenches with this man, you would know and I would not, what he calls his position. God bless you for your faith and courage to speak out.
With you, it seems, I have no inclination to throw any Biblical “complementarian” teaching about husband’s and wive’s roles out just because of Phillips’ extreme “patriarchy” position. As I wrote above, I have seen both the extremes of such a wife-submits-in-everything policy, along with the Grace-intensive, naturally embraced adopting of roles by people I know.
July 10th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
E. Stephen Burnett,
It has been a pleasure reading your posts here and at your blog. I would say that I very much agree with much of what you say. (I haven’t read all of it, yet, but hope to do so today.)
There is a debate between patriarchalists and complementarians right now. In fact, the two brothers (Bayly) who started CBMW resigned because it was too wimpy, didn’t go far enough and was too generous in its view of women. The patriarchalists feel that using the term “complementarian” is a cop-out in order to pacify feminists.
The Bayly Bros. wrote a public condemnation of CBMW almost 2 years ago.
Also, there is an article by Russel D. Moore that pretty much shows the patriarchal (hyper) mindset. They call even comps “feminists” but never tell us exactly what a patriarchal relationship should look like. Moore says this:
“”Evangelicals maintain headship in the sphere of ideas, but practical decisions are made in most evangelical homes through a process of negotiation, mutual submission, and consensus,” Moore said. “That’s what our forefathers would have called feminism — and our foremothers, too.”"
He also spoke to CBMW (it is on their website) about this issue. He spoke about patriarchy as being “servant leadership”. We would all agree, right? But, then you compare it to his above statement and you really wonder what they mean by “servant leadership”. If decisions in a home are not to be hammered out through negotiation, mutual submission and consensus, then how are they to be done? Dictatorship style? No input (consensus) from the wife? No compromise? Just make the decision without consulting the one who it will most affect?
He also said that most people nodding in agreement to complemtarian teachings are “feminists”.
After reading the article and listening to his talk, I am left very confused as to what he means by biblical patriarchy?
Also, on the CCC-forum at yahoo you can go there to read conversations about this issue. These are the hyper of the hypers. But, try and ask them a practical application and they go postal and start hurling out accusations and then kick you off the list. One such example is about discipline. The men on that list (most of them) believe a husband should be able to discipline his wife (not spanking, that I know of) if she disobeys him. They believe this because he has authority over her. But, ask them to give you an example and watch their heads explode.
I highly doubt most patriarchal homes have men who just make the decisions without discussing it first with their wives. If they do, then they should call themselves “dictators” and not patriarchs.
I just wanted you to know that there is a BIG controversy between comps and patriarchs. It seems that no one is up to snuff in the patriarch’s book.
July 10th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
(Comment no. 42, now — which as everyone knows is the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. …)
The lack of examples would seem amusing at first if it weren’t so dangerous in application, probably for many homeschool families nationwide.
Jen writes of this often at her blog, talking about how Phillips in his church would frequently discuss “visionary” concepts, such as “family worship,” and then never provide so much as a Top Ten List of Great Family Worship Tips for Sure Success. Evidently this was quite personally frustrating in her family, and I can’t imagine!
Moreover, it seems logically inconsistent: if you’re to be all Legalist and start dishing out rules and Codes of Conduct, why not carry this to its logical conclusion and start assembling notebooks with lists of the Most Godly Ways to Do Things?
A certain Mr. Gothard, after all, is not shy of this technique.
I am glad to hear that at least some of the uber-patriarchists, then, see the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood as foes, not friends to their cause. Perhaps this Russel Moore is more stringent than some of them, but as long as advocates of Biblical male/female roles keep the Cross and Grace as the focus, it is less likely they will swing into the extremes of Christianity And.
My points above remain: if you’re a Godly husband, seeking to love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for it, I do not see how you could not naturally want to love and cherish and protect your wife, lead her spiritually, listen and apply her honest feedback, make cooperative family decisions, and in all other ways quite naturally treat her like the intelligent, God-glorifying, beautiful adult that she is.
And now I think I will just close this comment with an overly emotional interjection, as follows — Good grief! to me this all seems so clear and obvious! is this so hard a Truth and lifestyle to grasp?
July 10th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Cheryl wrote:
“Paul is talking about all of us being joint heirs together - something that was *not possible* in the Old Covenant. Salvation was available in the Old Testament to all who joined themselves with Israel but the foreigner and the women were not allowed to be heirs. There was a tremendous separation between each group where one group had all the privileges and the other group had none.”
I think a word of caution may be beneficial here. At times we can become so convinced of a postion on something, which may even be an accurate position, and then allow it to intrude into areas of Scripture where it may not belong. When that happens we can tend to begin drifting in to false teaching. The direct context of a passage informs us of how it may fit together with other areas. Simply becuase a certain word is used, such as “inheritance” that doesn’t mean that it is bringing with it all the implications that it may somewhere else. Galatians is talking about a seperation but that seperation is between God and all of humanity, not a middle wall of subcatagories. Paul begins this dicussion in chapter 3 as he tries to explain to the Galatians the utter uselessness of trying to be justified by the Law (3:1-9). Justification is by faith alone and the Law can only condemn. The Law was added after Abraham’s justificaiton in order to demonsrate how completely sinful umans are and that Christ is the mediator between those who are seperated, man (humans) and God (3:10-22). The Law kept us “in custody” until faith was revealed and was therefore our teacher or tutor. As he points out that we are all “sons of God” he makes sure the Galatiains understand that this is all of humanity who come to faith in Him, Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, etc. He uses the example of a child who will one day inherit but was held fenced in on all sides by”guardians and managers” until the right time. Humanity too was held under the bondage of the Law until Christ came. He goes on to say “You were no longer a slave but a son.” It is clear through the whole passage that the seperation is between God and man not various segments of the human race and Christ is the mediator that moves us by faith from being under the Law to being a “son” of God. The sonship includes any and every human regardless of earthly position who comes to faith in Him.
There may be other passages that support the position on this but respectfully I don’t think Galatians is one of them.
July 10th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Don,
You said: “He goes on to say “You were no longer a slave but a son.” It is clear through the whole passage that the seperation is between God and man not various segments of the human race and Christ is the mediator that moves us by faith from being under the Law to being a “son” of God. The sonship includes any and every human regardless of earthly position who comes to faith in Him.”
I absolutely agree with you. Perhaps I was not clear in spelling out my understanding of the passage and thereby gave a wrong impression. What I am saying is that was a wall of separation between males and females, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free regarding how they are accepted by God. Both Jews and Gentiles could come to God and receive salvation yet only the Jews had an inheritance through God. Both male and female could receive salvation but only the males had the inheritance. Both slave and free could receive salvation but only the free Jew had the inheritance with God. But when Christ died he reconciled all of us to God in such a way that all of us have become heirs and we all receive the inheritance so that no more are we slaves, Gentiles, or women outside the inheritance, we are now all equal, all “sons” of God.
The separation that I am talking about primarily is the separation from being in the family of God as “heirs”. As the Jews worked out their “privileged” state, they separated themselves from the Gentiles, from women and from the slaves. They were the heirs and they were the “son’s” of God while everyone else was not on the same standing as they were. There was a separation between the groups because there was a separation regarding their *position* with God.
Jesus’ death brought us all into the holy of holies. This had previously been reserved for just a few. It is now no longer an advantage for someone to be born a Jew, born a male or born a free man. This is all about the “sonship” - our position as heirs. We are talking about the same thing, I think in just a different way. I would summarize my position to say that all parties of all groups had salvation in the same way as the Jews did (through faith in the Messiah), but not all had the rights as heirs. When Jesus died he reconciled us all together into *one* body, all of us now as “sons” and all of us as “heirs” of God with the full inheritance rights.
I hope that helps to dispel any thought that I am only talking about a separation between different kinds of humanity.
Does this make sense?
July 10th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
“What I am saying is that was a wall of separation between males and females, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free regarding how they are accepted by God. Both Jews and Gentiles could come to God and receive salvation yet only the Jews had an inheritance through God.”
Cheryl, you said you agree with Don, and here you just state the opposite of what he was trying to get across. Don, please correct me if I’m wrong.
Salvation (forgiveness and justification) is the ONLY way one can be accepted by God. Getting a land inheritance, or being a priest, or thinking you are better because you get an inheritance or are a priest, has NOTHING to do with how one is accepted by God. In fact, Eli, and Eli’s sons, as far as we can see, were not accepted by God and were judged with death. So much for being a Jewish male high priest, or son of!
Also, NOT being allowed to be a priest, or enter the holy of holies (which would include most men) should not be equated with NOT being accepted by God. God Himself talks about foreigners and eunuchs who serve Him being included, and that the eunuchs would receive a name from God which was better than sons and daughters.
Jesus said the Queen of Sheba would condemn the generation that saw Him — those that had the inheritance. A Gentile woman condemning those who had the inheritance. This clearly shows that being accepted by God does not hinge on the Jewish inheritance. Jesus also said things about Naaman, the Syrian, and the widow from Zerephath.
There never was a wall of separation between different groups as to how God decreed them to be made acceptable to Him. It has always been by grace, through faith.
It is true that believers are now a kindgom of priests, and all have been made partakers of the divine nature. It is true that the blood of Jesus Christ has brought in the New Covenant. But before that, when the Old Covenant was in effect, there was only a remnant of Israel that was accepted by God, and that left out a lot of males who supposedly had an inheritance.
And why were they not accepted? Why were they broken off as branches from a natural tree so the Gentiles could be grafted in? It was because they pursued a righteousness by works, not by faith.
Being accepted by God is the same in both testaments. Paul clearly explains this in Romans. And it is the same for all humanity, which Paul explains in Galatians.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Cheryl wrote:
“What I am saying is that was a wall of separation between males and females, Jews and Gentiles, slave and free regarding how they are accepted by God. Both Jews and Gentiles could come to God and receive salvation yet only the Jews had an inheritance through God.”
That is how I understood your comments. However, as I pointed out Galatians does not support this view. The analogy Paul uses here about inheritance is a Roman and not a Jewish analogy and was written primarily to a Roman audience. His whole point was that the entire human race was held in bondage until the “appointed time” and the division was bewtween mankind and God. Christ became the mediator between the two. You may try to build the argument from another place in Scripture but this one doesn’t suport it without reading something in to it that isn’t there.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Cheryl,
What do you mean by “inheritance”? How did only the Jews have an inheritance even though everyone came to salvation through faith?
I am trying to understand what you are talking about. Are you talking about man’s misunderstanding of salvation or that there really was a difference how God accepted women and men, slaves and free, Jew and Greek?
“Salvation (forgiveness and justification) is the ONLY way one can be accepted by God. Getting a land inheritance, or being a priest, or thinking you are better because you get an inheritance or are a priest, has NOTHING to do with how one is accepted by God. In fact, Eli, and Eli’s sons, as far as we can see, were not accepted by God and were judged with death. So much for being a Jewish male high priest, or son of!”
Lynn,
This is a good point. Nothing a person did or was in the OT would make them acceptable unto salvation.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
What does that verse in Galatians mean? What is it talking about when it says there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free? What is it referring to?
July 11th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Lynn:
“Salvation (forgiveness and justification) is the ONLY way one can be accepted by God. Getting a land inheritance, or being a priest, or thinking you are better because you get an inheritance or are a priest, has NOTHING to do with how one is accepted by God.”
Yes, I agree. No one came to God in the OT through their works. It was only through faith in the coming Messiah and faith in God’s provision. I am trying to reason this through and I think I have chosen some words that don’t quite express what I mean. Maybe y’all could help me express it properly.
Lynn said: “Salvation (forgiveness and justification) is the ONLY way one can be accepted by God. Getting a land inheritance, or being a priest, or thinking you are better because you get an inheritance or are a priest, has NOTHING to do with how one is accepted by God.”
Yes, that is exactly right! Salvation which is acceptance by God is only through faith. I also fully agree that the land inheritance has nothing to do with how one is accepted by God. I absolutely agree!
Lynn said: “There never was a wall of separation between different groups as to how God decreed them to be made acceptable to Him. It has always been by grace, through faith.”
Yes!! There was no separation on God’s end at all in how one group could be acceptable to him over another.
Lynn said: “But before that, when the Old Covenant was in effect, there was only a remnant of Israel that was accepted by God, and that left out a lot of males who supposedly had an inheritance.”
Yes, this too is true. Not all Israel is of Israel. It is only the believing ones that are truly accepted by God. That is absolute truth!
However outside the acceptance of God, there was a division in how slaves, women and gentiles were viewed in the covenant. All of them were accepted regarding salvation and all could bring their sacrifices into the temple. In this way all were equal. However not all were considered “sons” of God through Abraham and as outside the inheritance (the promise of God through Abraham) they were not equal. Ephesians says:
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
While salvation was not questioned, the inheritance through Abraham was reserved for free male Jews. Only the males inherited land. Yet God accepted and valued women and gentiles too!
Even though God valued the gentiles and accepted them, there was until Christ a separation between Jews and gentiles. Ephesians says:
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Here the scripture says that there is a barrier a dividing wall between the two groups - the Jews and the gentiles.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary says about these verses:
“The structure of the Greek words suggests that the dividing wall describes not a physical barrier, but the spiritual enmity between Jews and Gentiles, which separated them. Since Christ destroyed this enmity (cf. Eph_2:16), Jewish and Gentile believers should have no hostility.”
Clarke says: “The middle wall of partition - By abolishing the law of Jewish ordinances, he has removed that which kept the two parties, not only in a state of separation, but also at variance.”
Gill says: ‘ there was a great enmity of the Jew against the Gentile, and of the Gentile against the Jew; and chiefly on account of circumcision, the one being without it, and the other insisting on it, and branding one another with nicknames on account of it;”
Matthew Henry says: “We have now come to the last part of the chapter, which contains an account of the great and mighty privileges that converted Jews and Gentiles both receive from Christ. The apostle here shows that those who were in a state of enmity are reconciled. Between the Jews and the Gentiles there had been a great enmity; so there is between God and every unregenerate man. Now Jesus Christ is our peace, Eph_2:14. He made peace by the sacrifice of himself; and came to reconcile, 1. Jews and Gentiles to each other. He made both one, by reconciling these two divisions of men, who were wont to malign, to hate, and to reproach each other before.”
As you can see there was a wall of division between Jew and Gentile. Although the Jews accepted Gentiles into their midst and they could have salvation, there was no privileges of the inheritance through Abraham given them.
But Paul says that what has now been revealed is that the Gentiles too have become joint heirs with Christ.
What I was doing was taking the scripture about the separation of Jew and Gentile and the enmity between the two and applying it to Galatians. Paul lists three groups of people and historically there was a division between all three.
Even though the Jewish Christians accepted the Gentiles as having salvation, they had separated themselves refusing to eat with them and Peter too had gone along with this hypocrisy. Why the separation? It came because although the Jews accepted that the Gentiles could be saved, they were not in the same class as the Jews who were the “sons” of God and had the inheritance through Abraham. Paul says that it wasn’t understood in previous times that they too are heirs of God through Christ.
Then I looked at each group that Paul mentions in Galatians 3:28. What do the Gentiles, the women and the slaves have in common? The Jews would eat with none of them. They all were considered second class citizens and none of them could inherit land or were considered “sons” of God. Paul then goes on to say that Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free are all “sons” of God. The Jews already knew that these others had salvation, but they didn’t accept their equality as true “sons” of God.
Galatians 3:28-4:7 is very much a part of what Paul had already told us in Ephesians 2. A slave is not a son just as a Gentile was not a son. But God reveals that all are “son” all are in the position of inheritor.
So taking that understanding, how would you word it? I want to emphasize the “position” of “sonship” that the Jews believed belonged only to them. I want to emphasize that Christ’s death reconciled us all to God and it also reconciled us to each other because now they are none who are “sons” while others are “daughters” or “slaves”. We are all “sons” of God.
July 11th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Corrie said: “I am trying to understand what you are talking about. Are you talking about man’s misunderstanding of salvation or that there really was a difference how God accepted women and men, slaves and free, Jew and Greek?”
Thank you for asking. I am talking about man’s understanding of the privileges that follow salvation. Although a Gentile convert and a woman could bring sacrifices for sin and they could experience salvation because they put their faith in God’s provision not their own works, man’s understanding was that God did not give the inheritance of the covenant to anyone but free Jewish males. Their status as sons of Abraham gave them a privileged relationship with God.
Paul corrects this by showing that every group of people that were treated as inferior to the Jewish males was also given full rights as joint heirs of Christ. No longer were they to separate themselves from the Gentiles, the women and the slaves as if there was a status difference. All are “sons” of God and all are “heirs” with complete equality as joint heirs.
July 11th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Cheryl:
“However outside the acceptance of God, there was a division in how slaves, women and gentiles were viewed in the covenant. All of them were accepted regarding salvation and all could bring their sacrifices into the temple. In this way all were equal. However not all were considered “sons” of God through Abraham and as outside the inheritance (the promise of God through Abraham) they were not equal. Ephesians says:
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
While salvation was not questioned, the inheritance through Abraham was reserved for free male Jews. Only the males inherited land. Yet God accepted and valued women and gentiles too!”
Hi, Cheryl,
I agree with what you are stating, but I think the disagreement comes in with how you tie together OT inheritance and how the NT uses the term. It is an equivocation I am seeing. It is over the term “heir,” and “inheritance.”
1) The inheritance through Abraham only being to free male Jews — a) this does not translate into the inheritance Ephesians or I Peter speaks